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[FrankyG888]

I am sure that the Texans here are well aware of this case as it is unfolding in Houston, but I felt compelled to write about it.

For those of you who have no idea what I am talking about Joe Horn shot two burglars. So what, right? He was within his rights, or was he? The criminals were robbing his neighbor, not him.

I personally believe that Mr. Horn was absolutely not acting within his legal rights, but I do sympathize. These two men were committing a crime and he moved to stop them. Whether he acted appropriately under the law has little to do with whether he acted morally, and I believe that he did.

Mr. Horn did not make a snap decision and accidentally shoot at two innocents. The two men were found dead with bags full of his neighbor’s property. Mr. Horn took over seven minutes to decide to act with lethal force. This shows that he was acting thoughtfully and not impulsively.

Two fewer criminals in our country is good thing, right? Apparently those attacking the actions that Mr. Horn took are in favor of burglary.

I only hope that the great state of Texas doesn't make a great moral mistake and prosecute an American hero.

[Brf]

So.... was this guy or his meighbor in any danger of bodily harm?

You do not say whether the burglers were armed, or whether they attacked Mr Horn before he shot them.

[FrankyG888]

Well, it appears that they came at Mr. Horn and then realized he was armed and began running in the other direction. He warned them that he would shoot if they didn't stop. They didn't; he shot. One was actually still on his property, so he was within his rights to shoot and kill him under Texas law. The other however had made it back onto the burglarized property.

To make matters worse at least one of the two criminals was in the country illegally.

[s_stabeler]

well, i think the cirminals had it coming, but I dislike the thought of shooting someone breaking into another house. why? if this is the case i'm thinking it is, then the shooter didn't actually know his neighbour very well. so, the danger is that someone will shoot someone trying t break into their own home say, they;'d locked themselves out and the only key was inside. as I said, good on Horn, but the scenario troubles me.

[JuntaJoe]

Time I weighed in as a laymen in Texas law.

Texas law permits you to use deadly force to protect people and possessions at all times inside your domicile.

Texas law permits you to use deadly force to protect people and possessions after sunset on any part of your property.

Texas law permits you to use deadly force anywhere in the state to protect people.



See the rub here? It was his neighbor's property and he knew they were gone and in no danger.

He had the right to attempt capture, but not deadly force unless they attacked him during their escape.

Of course, all the neighbor would have to say is that he authorized Horn to protect his property while he was gone. That is, in essence, using a proxy to exercise his own right to use deadly force after dark to protect his possessions on his grounds.


I doubt that the neighbor deliberately authorized said power before leaving, but unless Horn or his neighbor admit to not making that pact then there is no way to dispute it.

Of course, we haven't heard a public release of what the neighbor has said either.


So how would I call it based on my gut?

I don't believe Horn had permission. I do know these guys were recidivist thugs, gang bangers, and illegal aliens deported before after serving time here for felonies. They were still in the act of a felony. They were thoroughly corrupt and without any social merit to society.

Joe Horn was also in a state of extreme emotion.

Manslaughter. Involuntary Manslaughter. Not murder.

Felony conviction and the rest of his life on probation by giving him 20 years suspended.


But I also believe that his neighbor should step up and cover his ass and get him off. Yes, it is a lie. Not a small one either. A real big lie that he should bear the burden for the rest of his days and thereafter, if he believes in that. It's what a good neighbor should do for someone willing to risk everything to protect his castle.

It's a Texan thing.

[s_stabeler]

oh, i quite agree the neighbour should get Horn off, but Horn should still have showed a bit more restraint.

[JuntaJoe]

Yes, he should have.

But seeing someone invading your good neighbor's castle tends to enrage a good Texan.

While more restraint would have been prudent, his actions were still in character with our way of life here.

[FrankyG888]

It isn't like Horn saw something suspicious and ran outside guns blazing, firing like a mad man. He watched for nearly ten minutes as these men were pulling stuff out of his neighbors house in bags.

[JuntaJoe]

You mean he was on the phone to 911 trying to get help for 10 minutes and got flustered at the typical lack of response.

We have abysmal 911 response times here and a glitchy system.

Btw, the 911 operator is not a licensed peace officer. Their words have no official weight. Being told to wait by them, Joe Horn was not disobeying a peace officer's orders.

Like I said, I felt he committed manslaughter induced by rage at a felonious act being done before his eyes and being told to pull up a chair and watch, simply for the cops to arrive after the fact.


Think this is a rare act?

Just look at these headlines first.

Texas City store owner kills suspected robber

Two dead after botched robbery at Fiesta

HPD looking for tips in fatal shooting

Suspected burglar fatally shot at Harris County home

Shooting victim may have been dead for days in home

Police don't know how killers foiled security

Customer Killed During Grocery Store Robbery

Neighbors Cope With Retired Teacher's Killing


None of those were related.

None of those headlines are more than 48 hours old as of this posting.

Nor do they cover an almost equal amount of headlines covering current prosecution of murder suspects in our county system.

People get shot here. A lot.

Sometimes its the intended victim, sometimes a bystander, sometimes the perpetrator.

Why do you think the world's largest funeral provider makes its home here?

Service Corporation International makes a killing on its home turf!


Joe Horn isn't some strange old man doing something out of character around here. He's already old news around here. The only reason he stays in the news at all is because outsiders want to come here and make more noise about it.

[s_stabeler]

ouch. that makes for 4-8 dead per day. I'm fairly sure even the military don't get that high a casualty rate. ( 3 years & 3000 dead makes for 1000 a year or 2-3 a day)

[JuntaJoe]

Remember these are headlines and may span several days before the first info comes out.

Yep, we average a couple murders a day. Not 4-8. But like all human activity, it comes in waves. No one gets murdered in an ice storm or when it is simply too hot to be outside for a few minutes. But have a reason for people mixing and the inevitable happens.

Yes, it is more dangerous to be a Houstonian than be in the US military on average. Sure, front line grunts die more, but so do people who go drinking at the rough night clubs here.


Actually, being in a 1st world military generally has a lower mortality rate for young people than almost any other thing they could be part of at that age.

Your average military administrative clerk likely has the longest life expectancy on the planet, short of suicide caused by, well, being an admin clerk! :lol:

[s_stabeler]

I was basing the 2-3 on iraq alone, incidentally, which is probably an underestimation. but yeah, a 1st world military usually means a low casualty rate, even in the frontline. so a couple murders a day, that's still higher than normal.

[ExarKun]

Maybe you can answer something for me JJ, as I used to live in Texas for most my life, I would say my heats there, and i recently heard this intresting news on the death pentalty and hadn't had time to do research yet on it... hell it may be old as hell news but I just hadn't heard about it till know.

Is it true that legislation there is trying to make it so if a perp commits a crime that could get him the death pentalty that if there was 3 or more witness to the crime if he is convicted he goes straight to the head of the line for execution?

I heard it and thought it was intresting, it was a comedian who I heard mention, I loved his joke about it "While the rest of the states are trying to remove the death penalty, we're putting in an express lane"

Anyway was just curious if you knew anything about it since I don't live down there anymore I don't get as much news from there as I used to.

[JuntaJoe]

That must be recent legislation, I guess, as I've heard nothing about it.

[ExarKun]

I'll do a little research then, see if there is an validty to it. I thought it was intresting.

[s_stabeler]

it's unlikely, as the ACLU would be all over them. alos, whta if a gang, for instance, sends in a murder complaint when someone legitimately used lethal force, in a crowded area, but with no other people hit ( assume the shot gangster was was at a different height, so there was no risk of hitting a bystander. also assume that the shot gangster was actually shooting, but was not a known gangster ) then a gang could put up enough witnesses to get the express excecution, and the citizen couldn't do a thing about it. ( with the system of 20-odd years between sentence and actual excecution, then anyone bribed has ample time for their conscience to send them to the police admitting it, or for some other method to emerge casting doubt on the conviction) not to mention, people like the scot recently acquitted (he's now pleading to a lesser charge and will be sentanced to time served. not ideal, sure, but as the guy had something like a $10million bond and was being bullied, he just wanted to be out of prison), what if that happens under an express system? there's be no end of trouble.

[ExarKun]

Your not thinking clearly, they have to prove it was first degree murder. They have to PROVE that the murder was either not self defence or that it waranted the death pentalty. That kinda scenario could never get the conviction.

The idea is, if after the trial is said and done, and the person was giving the death penalty, then they go straight to the line if they have three witness. But unless the person get's the death penalty sentence it doesn't matter if there was a hundred witness.

[JuntaJoe]

Exar is correct about sentencing. US trial are two distinct phases.

Trial and sentencing. Both are separate and the judge even has the right to form separate juries for the two parts if he thinks the trial jury is out over the line. Though that almost never happens.

But still, the state would have to convincing prove capital murder charges first.

As for the ACLA (American Criminal Liberties Union :cheesy: ) they will still likely vigorously fight this. Expect a Supreme Court case if it happens.

Personally, I'm not sure I would endorse it as precisely as it stands. However, if the 3 witnesses were combined with strong forensic evidence then I'd be ok with a much expedited appeal process. Give them all their real appeals, but toss the frivolous stuff and get the appeal judges working on it vigorously instead of letting the process languish in their in-boxes.