castledoom.com

s_stabeler · Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 2296

recently, the US senate passed a bill to require the parents of minors being taken across state lines for abortions be told. it doesn't require their permission, however, an amendement was proposed to prevent abusive parents needing to know. now, should parents need to know about abortions, or should they have to give permission for an abortion? or should they not have to know at all? (aside from the question of is the girl's life is in danger, where I don't think it should matter.) also,I KNOW this is a controversial topic. as for my own opinion,it's that parents should know, but not be able to prevent it. and if the girl's life is in dnger, they should be told AFTER it has happened. also, thisn is not a debate on abortion itself, but how much influence parents should have. it assumes it is NOT the father thathas impregnated the daughter in the first place.

edit- the news report on the bill- http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14021863/

Idril Alcarin · Guest

none- minors should be able to have abortion without parents knowing

If you feel like you can not tell your parents, there are abvious good reasons for that! At least, that is how I think about it.

crispybacon · Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:29 am Post subject:

The problem I have with this is the lack of responsibility abortion brings. If you are stupid enough to get/get someone knocked up, you should have to live with the consequences. Even if they can't keep the kid, there is always adoption. There is no good reason to have an abortion short of a non-viable pregnency
________
Nevada Medical Marijuana Dispensaries

Idril Alcarin · Guest

There are enough children to adopt if you would like to adopt.. I do not think that this is a good reason for not having an abortion. And I certainly do not think "adoption" should be a reason to throw nine months of your life away..

And I do not agree with you that you are stupid when you get pregnant. There are enough curcumstances where I can imaginge that someone does not want to keep the baby.

s_stabeler · Guest Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 2296

interesting that the current bill is completely unsupported. and crispybacon, I dont' want a debate on abortion, just on how much parents have to be involved in the process.

JuntaJoe · Guest Joined: 07 Nov 2004 Posts: 7391 Location: Texas

Children have no rights. They have privileges.

It goes like this:

Adults have rights and responsibilities.

Minors have rules and privileges.

The parents have the responsibility of taking care of the child and can be held accountable for the children's care by the state. Thus, the logic follows that they hold all the power in the relationship until the state says otherwise. Ergo, the children have no "right" to ignore parental wishes.

The new law specifically permits parents to take their children across state lines for an abortion. It would also permit a court appointed guardian to do the same if the court felt it needed to terminate parental rights due to abuse.

What the new law does not permit is other adults, including doctors, to terminate legal parental rights to consent to an abortion for their child.

This is not about abortion. I happen to be pro-choice. It is about parental rights.

Children should not be give rights to ignore their parents wishes unless a court finds those parents unacceptable and legally terminates those parental rights in a fair legal hearing.

As a pro-choice person, I endorse this law.

Furthermore, this thread will absolutely under no conditions become a debate about what you feel about the act of abortion.

Brf · Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject:

That is right.

Only the parents have the right to allow the doctor to touch the child. Without parental consent, the doctor and the non-parent adult who allows and pays for the operation would be thrown in prison.

s_stabeler · Guest Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 2296

I partially disagree. if it threatens the life of the mother, then it shouldn't need any consent at all. and also, I pratially agree with Junta, parents should be given the choice of preventing it if they are not abusive. and i don't mean a simple allegation, but that it ahs to be proved to criminal standards.

Brf · Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:03 pm Post subject:

If it is an emergency, it could be done regardless, without having to worry about crossing state lines, or other such nonsense. In any case, the parents would be given the bill, and therefore would be told about it.

In the case of parental abuse, the State would revoke the parental rights of the parents in any case, and therefore it would be up to the State agency to consent to the procedure.

JuntaJoe · Guest Joined: 07 Nov 2004 Posts: 7391 Location: Texas

As a matter of fact, Stabeler, the new law specifically recognizes emergency situations where the mother's life is concerned.

It does permit the physician to terminate the pregnancy if the mother's life is in imminent danger.

Therefore this law conforms to your potential objections.

s_stabeler · Guest Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 2296

Iknowe.actually, i don't think the law mentions consent, just that the parents have to be informed beforehand. and technically, under the senate bill, they could be informed at any time before the operation, while under the house bill, 24 hours notice is needed.

Brf · Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:33 pm Post subject:

Well... if it is not an emergency, the doctor would not be able to do anything to a child in any case, without parental consent. They couldnt even give an aspirin, let alone do a surgical procedure.

NibbyCat · Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject:

I'm glad I'll never have to worry about it.

Along the lines of what Idril said, this is one of those issues that needs to be dealt with before it's even on the radar. If at any stage of her sexual activity your daughter can't talk to you about what's going on with her, there's a deeper problem.

And, yeah, I'm being a hypocrite, I didn't feel comfortable telling my parents about things I did, but then, I did have relatives who were nurses who gave me sane advice.

Georgie · Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject:

NibbyCat wrote: If at any stage of her sexual activity your daughter can't talk to you about what's going on with her, there's a deeper problem. I can't believe that most kids really want to ask their parents about sex. Of course Mom and Dad's going to be upset that their kid strayed away from their teachings and became a dumb cheapo right under their roof.

You have to be dumb in today's age to put yourself in a mess like having a child without first getting yourself established. And then Mom and Dad may end up taking care of your child because you're not mature enough to take care of it.

JuntaJoe · Guest Joined: 07 Nov 2004 Posts: 7391 Location: Texas

I hate to say it, but you two ladies are only looking through the viewpoint of what if you were the teen girl?

But the girl is a TEEN! Can we not all agree that teens don't have the same judgement ability as an adult?

Isn't that why we task the parents to do the dirty work and be held accountable no matter the desires of the child?

So why can't you at least try to put yourself in the viewpoint of the parents?

No matter what happens, they will be held responsible for the outcome.

Society demands a hell of a lot from a parent. Good, that's the way it should be. Parents should be accountable. But let's not tie one hand behind their back and expect them to give their best.

If a teen girl gets stupid with a boy and gets pregnant, do you really want to completely restrain a parent from responsible action by letting the child escape to an abortion clinic on their own?

Parents need the village to butt out of their business, imo.

NibbyCat · Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject:

Which two are you talking about?

I never disagreed with your point, I just went the steps before.

I realize that it's highly unlikely I'll ever be in the situation, but I'd like to think that if I was a parent I'd keep an atmosphere of trust and communication, so that if my daughter did get pregnant, she'd come to me. But before she was at that stage, I'd make sure she knew the realities, both of conception and contraception, AND of raising kids.

Georgie · Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:58 pm Post subject:

Ever notice that we did not seem to have this problem to a great magnitude in the past? Sure, you always had cases where the girl ends up pregnant outside of marriage. There was only one case when my father was in school. Today, there's probably several in one highschool.

We are just nurturing the girl. If society really wants kids to stop doing something, make it unpopular. That means, for example, stigmatizing drug users the losers of society, not elevate them as poor helpless victims. Most kids want attention, and the losers are getting them. This is what we like to call tough love. Have you forgotten when you were a kid yourself?

crispybacon · Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:05 pm Post subject:

For the record, sorry about straying off topic. I...got out of hand.

Anywho, Georgie has a point; we need to keep this loser streak out of our society. Question is: how? Storm the bastions of the mass media and demand retribution for our stolen morals? Protest? Gather up angry mobs? So long as it is profitable, the image will be spread. So long as the image is spread, the trend will continue.

Also, experience leads to wisdom, and the inverse applies as well, but this sort of decision is one that reverberates throughout the rest of that persons life. I for one cannot endorse a law that limits the final word being anything short of completely in the hands of the person to whom it most applies.

And on another note, I could tell stories about nutjob parents who deserve their parental rights taken away that a court would not accept as such. The judicial system IS the best we've got but it is by NO MEANS perfect.
________
Honda dream 50r

Idril Alcarin · Guest

Ok. If I had a girl who got pregnant when she is just a teen. Than..

I do not think she is stupid. It is not wise, but stupid is the wrong word imo. And my daughter would probably immediatly feel it if I thought it would be 'stupid'. No, she needs to learn that she can tell me everything and not be ashamed about it. (I would love to have an open connection with my mother as I have that with my Mom.) But in this case she does not tell me, with whatever reason. If she does not tell me, than I can not push her into telling. Offcourse I would be worried sick and asks if she is alright like all the time. And I would try to help her in any way possible. But in my opinion you can not force another person to tell. If she decides that we do not have a strong enough connection to tell me she is pregenant and wants an abortion, than I would feel pain, while she does not think I am worth to tell. But imagine that I would push her into telling. What would than happen? She probably gets quiet on me even more the next time and tries to hide thing with extra care.

Hm I hope I explained this well, my English grammar is not getting any better if I write in emotion.

Idril Alcarin · Guest

And now something even more personal. I have been there. Oh well, not exactly me. My friend has been there. She got pregnant when she was 14, with a boy that she was very much in love. And she did not want to tell her parents. At first I could not believe that. But she said she was too ashamed and although she knew that they would help her she did not want to tell them. They would probably blame the boy for it and they did not liked him already. I did not dare to tell them either. That was partly because I did not (and do not) like her father and mostly because she trusted me enough to tell and I will not ever abuse such. The girl had an older girl from our street which she trusted very much and with her she went to the doctor and later to an abortion clinic. And I do not think she ever told her parents. She was always a quiet girl and also with this, so I do not think they ever found out. She is now my age (23) and she still has not told her parents, sometimes I see her. She is still with that boy. Now in my opinion this was a good way to handle such a situation.